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Author Topic: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid  (Read 4356 times)

Offline Paul

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Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« on: July 08, 2010, 10:59:48 PM »
The following comes from a post on TheFreshLoaf where member fthec (Franc) asked Mr Hamelman to clarify some of the confusion he was having over the stated mixing times in the book and his own info from kitchenAid.

Quote
Hi there,

I was hoping I could get this question to Jeffrey Hamelman (or if someone else could answer it). I've read his bread baking book recently and love it. However, there are some things that are a bit unclear to me. The main question I have is regarding mixing/ mixers/ rpm etc. He gives a guideline suggesting mixing most doughs to moderate gluten development-- this is typically 900-1000 rpm. Does this hold true for all mixer types? More specifically, you indicate mixing time for a KitchenAid type stand mixer to be around 21/2 minutes on 1st speed and 4-5 minutes on second speed. I received the rpm information from KitchenAid:
  • #1 (stir): 40 rpm
  • #2: 54 rpm
  • #3: 79 rpm
  • #4: 104 rpm
Therefore, mixing on 1st speed for 21/2 minutes= 100rpm
Mixing on second speed for 4-5 minutes= 216-270 rpm
This equals only 316-317 rpm. Am I missing something?
 
I'm wondering if I mixed on #2 for 4 min= 216 rpm + #3 for 9-10 min= 671-790, for a total of 887-1006 rpm. Or, would it make a difference doing it this way:

  • #1 for 4 min= 160 rpm
  • #4 for 7-8 min= 728-832 rpm
  • Total= 888-992 rpm.
This has similar total RPM as original but less total mixing time (11-12 min vs 13-14 min). Does total mixing time make any difference? I would have thought a longer, slower mix (i.e. example 1) would be preferable because of less dough oxidation from increased bowl friction at higher rpm's.
I'd really appreciate someone's help with this question.

Thank you in advance.

His response to me:

Hello Franc,

My apologies to you, regarding the discrepancies about rpms in a Kitchen Aid mixer. When I wrote the bread book, I used my existing sheets of rpms, which was not exactly outdated, but certainly was incomplete. It was later brought to my attention that the modern generation of KA mixers have different rpms than the older model I continue to use (my mixer has ten speeds).

I would recommend staying in first or second speeds with your machine - with longer mix times in each gear. I fear that using third or fourth my eventually harm the motor, as even loose bread doughs can be pretty stressful on home mixers. Do keep in mind that you may not need to mix the full 8-9 minutes on second to achieve the degree of gluten development that you are after, as each mixer style has a different effect on the dough (yes, this can be quite frustrating). Surely, if you use your hands to monitor development of each of your doughs, you will learn all you need to.

Forgive me for the oversight, and best of baking to you,

Jeffrey Hamelman
Bakery Director, Certified Master Baker
The King Arthur Flour Company
Paul
Yumarama Blog

I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Offline lello

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Re: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2010, 03:14:37 PM »
As a general subject we should consider that when speaking about mixing, Hamelman refers to what is called "improved mixing", which is a compromise between intensive and short mixing. (As far as I know it was first suggested by Calvel). A medium gluten development is considered to be achieved after 1000 rpm...but, as my "Advanced Bread and pastry" says we are talking about spiral mixers, which are much more effective that a standard KA. Usually in a spiral mixer the bowl rotates in the opposite direction as the spiral.

My point is, are we sure we are not confusing "improved mixing" with "short mixing"?...

I know that there is just one way, check the gluten development using our hands,
but still, some corrected guidelines might be necessaries for novices...like me :)

« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 02:50:56 AM by lello »

Offline Steve

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Re: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2010, 04:07:26 PM »
llelo, I think that I agree with where you are going.

As a fellow novice, it is my opinion you cannot over-mix most doughs in the typical KA mixer.

That being said, there is nothing like touching the dough to be sure.

Offline Abby

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Re: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2010, 08:14:35 PM »
I've been following the written times with my Kitchen Aid and then just using an additional fold or two if the dough looks like it needs further development . . . . seems to be working for me.  ::)

Offline lello

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Re: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2010, 02:56:08 AM »
That is exactly the point, most of the times, but not always, we need an additional fold or two. I still think that this is because I don't hove enough skill to handle very wet or tacky doughs, but sometimes I really believe that the extra fold is needed because we are closer to a "short mix" that to and "improved mix".

But, on the other hand, as Hamelman pointed out, better not to go to minutes, but just look at the dough.

In the next months I plan to do some testing with my KA, on the effect of mixing time.

Offline Steve

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Re: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2010, 07:02:38 AM »
llelo - I found an interesting link.  While it does not directly address your question of KA mixers, it might assist with your plans about the effects of mixing time, and maybe give you some more ideas.

Be prepared, it is in Russian.  That's why we have Google translate, right?  To hopelessly mangle directions?  Even with the translation, you will still get a pretty good study just from the pictures.

Enjoy.  There are some great euphemisms!  But it is interesting, with great photos.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmariana-aga.livejournal.com%2F118132.html&sl=ru&tl=en


Offline blue

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Re: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2010, 05:12:33 AM »
That's a very interesting link Steve -  thank you for posting it  :thumbup:

blue

Offline Zeb

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Re: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2010, 09:18:55 AM »
I enjoyed that so much Steve, What's wrong with me, have i become a real breadhead ? :o  I wonder though what sort of bread she got from that rubber sheet of dough? That's when it gets really interesting for me, speaking as someone whose idea of a windowpane test is holding a slice of bread up to the window  rofl.  I came into this bread making lark via Dan Lepard's light kneads, 10 seconds every 10 minutes etc for the first half hour after mixing and then light kneads and folds every 45 minutes to an hour... I've never kneaded anything for more than 5 minutes, absolute tops. Bread seems ok, but maybe I am missing out on bigtime  :wot?:
Joanna @ Zeb Bakes

Offline Steve

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Re: Mixer times for JH's BREAD and a KitchenAid
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2010, 02:39:20 PM »
Joanne, to your first question - undoubtedly.   :snicker:

To your second - I reckon she threw it away.  She made some remark about: "Oh polstakanchika flour and a quarter cup of water, but two minutes of your time on such an experiment no one should be sorry, right? "

Last night the Darling Bride and I watched a show on TV where the baker was dripping with sweat while kneading her dough, and she later beat the dickens out of it to 'de-gas'.  I think you are quite clever and deserve to be commended for finding a better way.