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Author Topic: Pullman recipe please  (Read 2101 times)

Offline Beckamojo

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Pullman recipe please
« on: September 09, 2011, 08:11:35 AM »

Hi Everyone,

My husband bought me a Pullman tin so that I could bake a large family sized loaf (our bread maker makes a large loaf that is tall rather than long!)  The trouble I am having is that my tin is 13 x 5 x 5 and I cannot find a recipe to make enough dough for that size.

I did find a recipe but it was for USA cup measures, I don't have them as I am UK based but I do have a conversion book - I spent all day yesterday trying to work out a cup of flour and other ingredients but then realised that even a US teaspoon is different to a UK teaspoon, and at that point I gave up 

I have in the meantime been baking all kinds of recipes in this tin and every one of them has failed. They have sunk, not risen and been full of holes.  I am a desperate cook.   

If there is anyone here who can give me a recipe (in UK measures) for my Pullman I would be very grateful 

Thanks in advance. xx

Offline Jacqueline

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2011, 10:02:21 AM »
Hi Beck,

I do have a dough amount solution for you but first I was wondering - do you have electronic scales so that you can weigh all the ingredients rather than using cups? If so that wil make life much easier - though I can do a cup conversion for you if you need it. It'll be very error-prone but I do know what it's like to be without scales and still need to bake :)

Also, it sounds like there might be a separate problem with your dough generally, aside from the problem of it fitting in the tin. You mentioned that the dough sinks, doesn't rise, and is full of holes. Do you mean it rises, then sinks before you bake it? Or that it rises but then doesn't rise any more in the oven? Or that it never rises at all? I was thinking maybe you were overprooving the dough, but there could be other reasons. Anyway, let's work on the Pullman Problem first.

Cheers,

Jacqueline

Offline Beckamojo

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2011, 02:35:15 AM »
 WOW, Thanks Jacqueline,

You could be right about the over proving because what I have been doing is making the dough in a bread machine, then taking it out shaping it to the tin and then allowing a final prove. Which is what the bread machine says to do, and, it does look perfect before being cooked.

I thought it was that I was using not enough dough for the size of my tin. which is why I listed the size on my post.  It always sank after it went into the oven (another problem) and I initially thought it could be too much water considering that the bread machine when it makes a loaf takes quite a lot of water compared to hand baking, if that makes sense?.

I am using an AGA oven and have since writting my first post, tried cooking the bread with the tin directly on the floor of the oven and that gave better results. i.e if didn't sink in the middle along the entire length of the loaf it sank over the entire loaf so I ended up with a 'half height loaf' rather than a  'crater' loaf.  :weep:

I do have scales and they are for ounces and grams so I should be fine with what ever you tell me.  I did have a cup converter but got totally lost especially when I then realised that US teaspoons are smaller than UK ones, at that point I had a meltdown and every time I recalculated it I got different results from the previous time. Grrr.

All I am after is a recipe to fit the pullman 13 x 5 x 5 tin for an everyday white family loaf. If you can guide me there I would be very happy  pompom  (that's me being happy) xx

Offline Paul

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2011, 10:43:06 AM »
Hey Becka,

I think there are general dough quantities associated with particular pan sizes and I would want to see what Jacqueline's suggestions are.

I did do a little hunting about and here's my findings: Check the King Arthur recipe for a Pain de Mie suitable for a 13 x 4 x 4 pan. It is a bit smaller than your pan so you'll want to increase the amounts which are, fortunately, given in weights as well as volume.

Actually, let's break it down here so you can see what is going on. Their original recipe reads:

2/3 cup (5 3/8 ounces) milk
1 cup (8 ounces) water
6 tablespoons (3 ounces) butter
2 1/4 teaspoons salt
3 tablespoons (1 1/4 ounces) sugar
1/4 cup (1 1/8 ounces) Baker's Special Dry Milk or nonfat dry milk
3 tablespoons (1 1/4 ounces) potato flour
4 3/4 cups (20 ounces) King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
2 teaspoons instant yeast

So first we need to convert the above to something simpler, grams. Let's start with the milk: 5 3/8 oz.
We begin by finding out what that ounce fraction is in percentages, so we take the 3 and divide it by 8
 
3÷8 = 0.375.
Let's go with .4 then, rounding up.
 
Now the milk is 5.4 ounces instead of 5 3/8. But we want grams. The formula to convert ounces to grams is:
Ounces x 28.35 = grams
(You may want to make note of that, hugely handy; I wrote it on a bit of tape and stuck it on my kitchen calculator until I remembered it by heart)

5.4 x 28.35 = 153 grams.

Now we know the recipe needs 153 grams of milk. Next! 8 oz water:

8 x 28.35 = 227g water

Let's zoom through the rest:

3 x 28.35 = 85g butter

teaspoons... let's leave those to later

1.25 x 28.35 = 35 g sugar
1.125 x 28.35 = 32 g dry milk
1.25 x 28.35 = 35 g potato flour
20 x 28.35 = 567 g AP flour

Teaspoons… some of this needs research. The staples you may want to keep note of: teaspoon and tablespoon weights of salt, yeast, sugar, vanilla. If it helps:

a US teaspoon is  5 mL
a US Tablespoon is 14.7 mL

I happen to know that a teaspoon of salt is ~6 g so 6 x 2.25 = 14g salt

Instant Dry Yeast is 3.1g per teaspoon so 2 teaspoons is 6g.

BTW: A “packet” of yeast contains anywhere from 6 to 17 grams, depending on location and manufacturer: they’re all over the darned map. Instead, go by the general rule that you use 1% of the FLOUR WEIGHT in Instant Dry Yeast and you should be good. Here, the flour weight is 567g, so 6g is ~1%. If you were to use ACTIVE Dry Yeast, you’d want to use 1.5% instead. Instant Dry is better.

Let's regroup:

milk: 153g
water: 227g
butter: 85g
salt: 14g
sugar: 35g
dry milk: 32g
potato flour: 35g
All-Purpose Flour: 567g
Instant yeast: 6g
Total weight: 1154 grams

Since this amount is for a 13 x 4 x 4 pan, we need an extra inch to fill your 13 x 5 x 5 or increase the amount by 25%. Therefore we need to get each of the above weights up to 125%:

milk: 153 x 1.25 = 191 (I have a % button on my calculator so that makes it easier: 153 + 25%)

milk: 191g
water: 284g
butter: 106g
salt: 18g
sugar: 44g
dry milk: 40g
potato flour: 44g
All-Purpose Flour: 709g
Instant yeast: 8g
NEW total weight: 1444 grams

Now, you can follow the directions given on the King Arthur page and have the right quantity of dough for your Pullman pan. Use either the hand or mixer method (if you have one) the bread machine is probably not big enough to take all that dough.

Tip:
• After your bulk proofing (the first one), divide the dough evenly into 5 pieces (about 280g each). Roll each into a ball and let them rest for at least 15 minutes under cling film.
• Roll each piece into a rectangle. Roll up into a log. Rotate 90 degrees and repeat.
• Oil the walls and the lid. Place the 5 dough logs evenly in the pan. Let it rise again until the dough is 90% from the top of the pan, about 30-40 minutes (depending on how warm your kitchen is).
• Bake as per instructions

This not only gives a pretty loaf, you can then split the loaf in sections and freeze what you won't use for a while. This is handy for a very large pan like yours.


Images from: Albertitto's Kitchen

To close:
• we found a white bread Pullman recipe, with weights!
• we've learned how to convert it to grams and
• scaled it up to 125% to suit your larger pan.

So that's my input on the issue, let's see what Jacqueline suggests; her solution may be a lot easier! But  now you have a little background info on scaling, converting and know to hunt up recipes with weights.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 11:57:39 AM by Paul »
Paul
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Offline Jacqueline

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2011, 11:54:05 AM »
Wow, thanks Paul! That's awesome. I forgot about the King Arthur site.

I was going to suggest about 1,800g of dough, based on the discussion on tins, volumes, and dough weights in the pain de Mie section from December last year http://mellowbakers.com/index.php?topic=812.0. The weight that Hamelman gives for a 13" x 3.75" x 3.75" (33cm x 9.5cm x 9.5cm) is 2.25lb (1020g), which works out to 5.07oz of dough per cubic inch (or 2.9g per cubic cm). Since the volume of Becka's tin is 5325 cubic cm, this comes out closer to the 1,800g mark. However, less dough is probably better for the pullman due to the risk of overflow and sticking to the lid!

Anyway, good luck Becka and please do let us know how you go :)

Jacqueline

Offline Paul

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2011, 12:12:45 PM »
Hey Jacqueline,

It's probably safe to say there's a certain amount of flexibility, particularly in the quantity and density of different doughs. The catch to that is that Hamelman IS King Arthur's head baker, so we once again see some conflicting info from what should effectively be the same source.

I might go with Hamelman's own figures, I think I trust his senses more than the general 'business' side. Or better yet, try both and see which works out.

My baking teacher, Martin Barnett, made a lovely challah loaf in a large pullman last Friday but he did it without the lid so that makes the actual amount much more flexible. The bread is still very square on sides and bottom with a nicely rounded top side.

By the way, I'm going to post on this issue over on my blog. Spread the info where we can!

And indeed, Becka, please keep adding to this thread! We would love to see your results.
Paul
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Offline Jacqueline

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2011, 12:18:17 PM »
You're right, it would differ a lot depending on the density of the dough. The pain de mie is of the lighter and fluffier school, so less is probably better. Your mention of the challah reminded me - my mum bakes an oatmeal loaf (v. similar to Hamelman's - includes a bit of milk and brown sugar) in a pullman tin but without the lid. She keeps a third of the dough back and braids it along the top, then sprinkles with more oats. It's a lovely looking and tasting loaf, and very simple to make.

Offline Beckamojo

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2011, 03:53:05 PM »
Thanks Jacqueline and Paul,
You have certainly come up trumps for me, can I just ask a quick question regarding potato flour - have not heard of that, can i just substitute it with ordinary bread flour?

I am going to make this loaf tomorrow and will post results on here. Fingers crossed.

Thanks again guys you have been very kind. x

Offline Paul

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2011, 04:39:17 PM »
The potato flour in this case is used as a starch so keep that in mind when looking to substitute it's purpose. Can you get potato flakes (instant mashed potato) in your local grocer's? If so, you can whirr that up in a blender or food processor.

All Purpose flour, a.k.a. Plain Flour in the UK, has less gluten than Bread flour so if you're looking to use Bread flour, you're already making changes to the recipe. Potato flour has NO gluten, so it's doubly not replaceable with more high gluten flour. Your bread will come out tougher than expected because of the stronger gluten network from Bread flour.

It would be best to use a recipe where you can easily get all the ingredients then make it exactly as described until you can almost do it with your eyes closed. Once you know it inside out, then you can start making changes. Otherwise, if it fails, you won't know what messed up since you weren't starting from a tried-and-true recipe. You'd have made several changes and not be able to tell which one was responsible.

The recipe I located is not the only recipe you can make in a pullman pan. It's simply one I figure was easy to find (where they sell Pullman pans), nothing more. Find one that makes "plain white sandwich bread" and use that instead, just making it as big as needed to fill your pan, about 1400 - 1800 grams in total. Let's call it 1500 for simplicity. Once you've located a 'normal panned bread' recipe you can follow without needing "special" ingredients, figure it's total dough weight the divide 1500 by that amount. Say it makes 830g. So 1500 ÷ 830 = 1.8. Now all you need do is increase each ingredient by 1.8.

If you have any cookery books and one of them has a plain white bread recipe, use that. Or look online for white sandwich bread recipe - just pick one with WEIGHTS not volume and you will do just fine.
Paul
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Offline Jacqueline

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2011, 04:41:21 PM »
Or just use cornflour instead of the potato flour.

Offline Beckamojo

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 01:13:54 AM »
Dear Paul and Jacqueline,

Here is the results of my first go at your ideas.

Firstly I made the dough in my bread machine and despite the vast quantity it coped really well.
  :azn:
Then it proved
  ;D
Then it baked.....

and then it came out looking like this
   :thumbup:
and best of all it tastes yummy
So thanks ever-so-much for all your expert help :clap: Just love you guys and this forum :bow: xxxx

Offline Paul

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 05:27:46 AM »
Glad to see it turned out so nicely!  pompom
That must be a MONSTER bread maker you have to handle 1500 grams of dough!! Well, there you go! Now that you know the secrets, don't be afraid to try other recipes.

And thanks for posting those lovely pictures.
Paul
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Offline Jacqueline

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 12:54:15 AM »
Yay!!!!! So pleased to see a bread success :) :) :) It looks like a lovely even-textured loaf and I bet it toasts beautifully. Hope the family are pleased.

Jacqueline

Offline Zeb

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2011, 01:39:27 AM »
Hey that looks wonderful -I'm based in the UK too and it's a nightmare working out the dough weights for those tins.  I was going to add the other one that looks pretty similar is the Toast bread one from Bread that we did earlier in the year and I think my pullman is the same size as yours. You can use strong or very strong english bread flour for this one. I use the very strong and get a very elastic bouncy crumb.  These are the quantities for a 13 inch pullman that I used. Spraymalt you can get at a brewers or beer shop, if you do get it, keep it airtight because it can go hard in damp air.

382 g strong bread flour
382 g very strong bread flour
504 g water
15 g soft butter
15 g salt
10 g light spraymalt or sugar
1 ½ tsp yeast

Anyway, it's another one to try out on the family maybe?


 best wishes, Joanna

Joanna @ Zeb Bakes

Offline Paul

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Re: Pullman recipe please
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2011, 09:52:31 PM »
Here's a recipe we use at school to make plain white bread. I've scaled it to get you ~1400 grams of dough and included the Baker's Percentage should you want to make less or more.

Farmhouse White Bread
Bread Flour 798g100%
Salt16g2%
Sugar29g4%
Veg Shortening29g4%
Milk Powder15g2%
IDYeast8g1%
Water (+/-)508g63%
TOTAL WEIGHT:1404g176%

All-in "straight dough" method.
Paul
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I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.